The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Discussing Tolkien's foundations for Middle-earth
Iolanthe
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Post by Iolanthe » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:33 pm

Is this the edition with all the Nasmith paintings, many of which are new? A real treat.

I think a chapter by chapter discussion would be great. Something to really get our teeth into!!!!
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...

Philipa
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Post by Philipa » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:19 pm

Iolanthe wrote:Among those, for me, are the seemingly endless accounts of the tribes of men tracking westwards. Last time through I skiped that altogether so I could back to the real business (elves) :oops: .
Yes, those are the ones. :lol:

We could sure give the chapter by chapter a try. :D
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marbretherese
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Post by marbretherese » Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:36 am

I like the idea of a chapter-by-chapter Sil discussion too!
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back.
But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy."


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Iolanthe
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Post by Iolanthe » Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:02 am

Great! Chapter by chapter it is :D .
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...

shieldmaiden
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Post by shieldmaiden » Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:22 pm

I definitely would like a chapter by chapter discussion. :D I think it would be great fun!

@ Iolanthe - I didn't get the Nasmith edition mine is the 30th Anniversary Edition that was published in 2007.

It contains a 14 page letter written by Tolkien in 1951 that contains his account of the mythology of Middle Earth as well as some colour modifications to the Maps of Beleriand and the Lands to the North, and the Map of the Realms of the Noldor and Sindar. The frontispiece is a first time printing of Tolkien's painting of Halls of Manwë and Tolkien's heraldic device for Lúthien Tinúviel.

The binding is really wonderful and it comes in a protective sturdy box.

I'm quite enamoured with it as you can see \:D/
“…..suddenly above him far and faint his song was taken up, and a voice answering called to him. Maedhros it was that sang amid his torment.” The Silmarillion, Chapter 13: Of the Return of the Noldor

Merry
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Re: The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Post by Merry » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:48 pm

Long time since someone posted in this thread!

Here's something I've always wondered: Tolkien's legendarium has accounts of how the Elves and Men were made by Eru, and of how the dwarves were made, by not how hobbits were made, as far as I know. Have I missed something? If I haven't, why do you suppose this is? I know that the legendarium is not hobbito-centric until the very end, but it still seems that JRRT might have given that a thought!
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Lindariel
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Re: The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Post by Lindariel » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:39 pm

Hi Merry! According to The Encyclopedia of Arda, hobbits are:
A mortal race almost certainly related to Men, though their origins are unknown. Their most distinguishing feature was their short stature; even the tallest Hobbits rarely exceeded four feet in height.
I would guess this places them among the Secondborn, and therefore they are creations of Iluvatar.

Then, there are also the Ents, who were created "at the prayer of Yavanna to protect the forests of Middle-earth," so they are also creations of Iluvatar at Yavanna's behest.
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

Philipa
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Re: The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Post by Philipa » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:08 pm

Anyone want to take on the chapter by chapter discussions? We didn't get very far last time. :lol: Maybe Michka you can finally get to read the book? :D
Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!

Thoughts from Eryn Lasgalen An online guide to all things Tolkien

Merry
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Re: The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Post by Merry » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:16 pm

That would be fine with me, Philipa. Maybe I'll finally get to know this book!
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Philipa
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Re: The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Post by Philipa » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:13 pm

let's see who joins us. I guess we should just start at the beginning... again. :P
Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!

Thoughts from Eryn Lasgalen An online guide to all things Tolkien

MICHKA
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Re: The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Post by MICHKA » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:57 am

Je suis d'accord pour la discussion, mais avant il faut que je relise les chapitres 1 par 1 pour bien assimiler , parfois difficile :? ; merci de partager les opinions et expliquer en détail :D :idea: :hug:
Tout ce que nous avons à décider c'est ce que nous devons faire du temps qui nous est imparti

Philipa
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Re: The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Post by Philipa » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:32 pm

Yes Michka we will all reread the first chapter also. :D It has been a long time since I read the Sil. and I will also learn more than the first time I read the book. :D There is no time limit.
Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!

Thoughts from Eryn Lasgalen An online guide to all things Tolkien

MICHKA
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Re: The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Post by MICHKA » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:55 am

Je ne suis pas spécialiste en littérature ni experte en analyse, aussi excusez-moi d'exprimer avec simplicité extrême ce que je ressens à la lecture des oeuvres de Tolkien que j'apprécie mais ne comprends pas toujours. Par exemple: ce sont des esprits, supérieurs et divins qui ont créé l'espace, les planètes, la terre ,comme ce qu'on lit dans la bible, la mythologie grecque, romaine, egyptienne, boudhiste etc... Il leur donne une apparence, des sentiments, des colères, ,leur permet d'engendrer, ce qui me paraît compliqué, surtout avec les noms empruntés pour les situer( Dieu! qu'il y en a!!)En fait j'y vois une similitude avec les anges, les archanges ,les démons, Morgoth étant le rejeté aux enfers, exclu du paradis pour intelligence, curiosité, avidité du savoir et du pouvoir par conséquent. Finalement ils ont un comportement très humain. Pourquoi dans toutes les versions pour expliquer la création, y a -til du mauvais? Ne pouvait-on ne faire que de bonnes choses? C4est simpliste, je le conçois, puisqu'on est obligé de constater le résultat, dans ce monde, et dans les récits ce n'est pas meilleur, même dans les contes de fées.... :wink: narrés évidemment par des terriens, hum;;;alors ce Silmarillion commence par les luttes entre elfes bons, et méchants. Et comment les mortels arrivent et se comportent parfois mieux , comme ce brave Beren, comment certains rêvent de nouveaux horizons en étant dans une contrée magnifique, cela est également humain: vouloir aller plus loin ; et l'amour présent entre les unions de ces merveilleux personnages avec leurs failles, leur espoir de bonheur , leurs aspirations à l'ultime félicité? Je vous laisse m'expliquer ce vous en pensez
Tout ce que nous avons à décider c'est ce que nous devons faire du temps qui nous est imparti

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Re: The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Post by Merry » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:27 pm

Big observations and questions, Michka! All I know is that the problem of evil has bothered people since the beginning of thought. It's interesting that we don't seem to be able to say that it just is, like other qualities in life, but that we have to look for its origin and we see it as a challenge to the meaning of life. For believers, it is also seen as a challenge to the existence of a good God. The traditional answer, and one that I think works, is that it is related to free will: if God makes being who are free, then freedom to reject the good must be a possibility. And God thinks that freedom is better than slavery, even if the slaves were good slaves.

It's interesting how Tolkien describes the process by which Melkor rejects Eru: he greatly desires to create beings of his own (in other words, he desires to be Eru) and begins searching the Void for the Imperishable Flame. It's interesting that he thinks that it's in the Void and not a part of Eru himself. He begins to think that Eru is neglecting the Void, which is weird, since the Void is nothing. Finally, having spent so much time in the Void and thinking about it, he rejects the community of the Ainur and begins making discordant music.

Funny: he sounds like a depressed teenager!
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Lindariel
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Re: The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Post by Lindariel » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:03 pm

Merry, Merry :lol: :lol: -- Now I'm never going to get the image of Melkor/Morgoth as an angsty, Goth teen sulking in his bedroom, listening to emo music, and cutting himself out of my head!!

Mankind has sought to answer the question "Why do bad things happen?" since the beginning of time. Answers -- none of them completely satisfying -- have come in the form of cave paintings, tales told and acted out around the communal fire, myths and legends, philosophical treatises, scientific theories, religious doctrines -- and in The Professor's case, a sub-created myth/legend. We are constantly trying to understand ourselves and our place in the universe, and as we learn more, our ideas evolve. There's so much we still don't know.

My daughter shared an internet meme with me the other day that neatly sums this up -- "I don't know, therefore -- GOD!"

I find myself returning again and again to The Ainulindale in The SIlmarillion. I think I have come to like it MORE than the creation myth in the Bible!
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

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