Boromir or Faramir

[Kelkhatan]

Excuse my late answer, but I am new to your community, nevertheless I have to say somerthing

I decided to go for Boromir although I tended first to Faramir for he is more valiant and gentle.
Why did I choose Boromir?

- Boromir, like Philipa put it right, was a victim of his father or even more of sauron himself who poisoned Denothor by using the former 'innocent' palantiri

Unfinished tales p.523

It must be remembered that the Stones (palantiri) were originally 'innocent', seving no evil purpose. It was Sauron who made them sinister, and instuments of domination and deceit.

Denethor's mind was poisoned by using the palatiri through which he got 'abused' by Sauron. Nobody can say when he first started to use it (it would be around 2988 when his wife died) but there is no doubt in the power of the stones. This is perfectly illustrated by the 'horror' in Gandalfs face when Peregrin looked into the Stone. Nobody thought of the palantiri as keyrole in the war until this point. Gandalf was after that in a great haste because he deemed that Denethor was using the stone aswell.

We must see the stones as less powerful 'rings', were turned rather to control its user than to reveal truth.

To get to the point: Denethor was a absolutly charismatic person as we can see when Pippin meets him first. There is no doubt that he was able to influence Boromir.
Boromir was the first born and with this comes a lot of responsability that would not be for the second born Faramir. Boromir stood under strong pressure to fulfill the will of Gondor respectivelly his father's. Boromir was compelled to think for Gondor and his blood. He fighted his whole life for his people and has never forsaken them. He wanted them to be free and proud and was willing to give everything for that.
Faramir on the other hand was second born and was always protected by Boromir, who had nobody protecting him in return, he had to carry the whole weight.
Faramir was in the easier position. He could be gentle for he was not ultimatly in charge.
That is only the peak of the eisberg.

Let's talk about Boromir's ringlust.
The ring is the most powerful thing still existing in middle-earth, the ring has his own thoughts and plans. The ring choose his carrier or at leasts influence his own journey where he might.
The Ring never wanted to be in Faramirs hand, who would have lead him away of his master/servant (sauron). In the case of Boromir it would have been an advantage for a hobbit is not best for dominating and there might have been a chance to weaken or even destroy Gondor in gettin closer to his final goal, Mordor.

With all this points I want to make clear why I would have picked Boromir. He was a main target of the evil. The ring awakened a lust in far more powerful and wiser men (Isildur, Galadriel) and still in the end he withstood his lust although it just might have been for a moment and saved all the hobbits.

I would call for him because I see his drama and I would be sure that he would never forsake in defending to his own death!
Who can say the same about Faramir? Yes he would fight till the end for his father and for his men, but would he for a former stranger? I don't know.

Sorry for the long post

some other short reasons:

- Faramir is similar to Tolkien himself. Tolkien was writing in the war while somewhere men were dying and he heeded more trees than men
Please do not misunderstand this is no offend against Tolkien, but when I am in the greatest peril than I want someone who cares more about the human being than for nature (so would not pick me either )

So that's it

[Iolanthe]

Faramir was in the easier position. He could be gentle for he was not ultimatly in charge.

He was a main target of the evil. The ring awakened a lust in far more powerful and wiser men (Isildur, Galadriel) and still in the end he withstood his lust although it just might have been for a moment and saved all the hobbits.

This really emphasises the pressures and demons that Boromir fought with his whole life. They are both very good points, Kel. I hadn't considered how the Ring would call more strongly to Boromir because of his power and responsibilities in a way it never would to Faramir. Poor Boromir - desiring to do right and assailed on all sides from his responsibilities, the way he was brought up and by the Ring.

[Kelkhatan]

Thanks Iolanthe.

Just to draw the connection, as I stated in the Thread "The Silmarillion" we have here again the picture of a vision (better existance and future of Gondor), which gave hope and honor, turning into obsession and leading to devastation.

[bruce rerek]

Kelkhatan, I would have you consider who had the heavier burden. Yes, much was expected from the elder brother, but let us not forget that Faramir was always seen in a poor light by his father Denethor. What father tells his son that he would have had his death over his brother? To be called a wizard's pupil rahter than a son? Each had a very heavy burden but with different weights.

[Kelkhatan]

Hi bruce,

I agree with you that both had their burden and I did not want to play down Faramir', but I just stated that in view of being not gentle and social. You are right that Denethor did rather disrespect Faramir than he loved him. And you are also right that it is really frustrating when your own father does not appreciates you.
But the points are in my opinion:

- It is sometimes even harder to look at your brother who get's humilated by your father and no matter what you do you can't change it. Your father loves you and you cannot come out the misery without loosing one of the two (father / brother)

- When you, in the eyes of your father, always do wrong in any situation it is easier for you to do the wrong thing (father's eyes) when you even know it is the right one (general).

[Merry]

You do make a compelling argument, Kel--and the membership here can tell you that I am no fan of Boromir! It is interesting to read you and bruce discussing the duties of sonship.

[bruce rerek]

Let us also remember the vanity of Denethor. He used Boromir for his glory and was enraged at Faramir that he let the One Ring go with Frodo to the pass of Cirth Ungol. "He (Boromir) would have broght me a mighty gift!"
The treachery of the Ring and Palantir drove Denethor to despair and to almost scarificing Faramir. The sad fact remained that Boromir would have brought the One Ring to Minas Tirith and to its doom had he taken it from Frodo.
Obdience without balance is neither prudence nor wisdom. Faramir knew this too well when he declared to Frodo that even if he had found the it on the highway he would not take it for himself. When Sam tells Faramir he has the quality of Gandalf, Faramir answers, perhaps you smell the air of Numenor from afar, he speaks to the wisdom rather than the glory of Numenor.

[Merry]

Yes! And this is the kind of balance of virtues that we can rely on in Tolkien, that makes him a pretty good moral guide. I think this element is often overlooked amidst his other obvious gifts. Maybe this would be a good essay topic!

[Kelkhatan]

Bruce I absolutely see your point but I can only say again what I have already stated:

"I guess, that if the ring would have called for Faramir I highly doubt that he could have resist. For the power of the ring is beyond the power of middle-earth and even beyond the power of the Numenor."

[bruce rerek]

Kel,
Consider the nature of radical evil and its many blind spots, the one that proved to be Sauron's undoing; the inabiltiy to consider a loving agent's motives which would appear irrational or even nonsensical. No one could resist the One Ring and bring it to its end was Sauron's unwavering truth. Faramir did let the One Ring go from his host. Radical evil snears that anyone really sacrifices their material advantages purely for the common good.
Frodo did, and almost failed, but what had kept both Frodo and Bilbo from Smeagol's fate was pity. The One Ring is the talisman of radical evil, and as such can not create anything fundamentaly new, it can only twist and pervert the good. Pity is beyond its set of assumptive truths, and that was its end.

Great to have you on our site, and look forward to more.

[Cheyenne Angel]

I vote also for Faramir
but... well I'm sorry but I'm not good enough in english that I can explain why this vote ...so, in some words... he is more human and more right in my eyes, without wanting for disavowing the bravery of his brother as much…

[Merry]

Your English is good enough to get your ideas across well, CA! Faramir's love for the brother who was clearly their father's favorite (more than this: their father's obsession!) says a lot about him.

[Cheyenne Angel]

oh yes absolutly Merry
thanks

[cross_harps]

Hi there,

Newest member here casting another vote for Faramir, again for all of the reasons already mentioned. I, too, find it difficult to keep the "book characters" and the "movie characters" separated, but, I do feel that (in most instances) the movie characters very much carried forward the ideas that Tolkien laid out in the books.

While I love the character of Boromir who is so strong and such a warrior, I found his character both in the book and in the movie to me a bit one-dimensional. He doesn't show many layers.

It seems to me that there is just a lot more depth to Faramir's character--the grown man who still so desperately needs his father's love and approval that he is quite literally willing to die for it, to the man who is able to resist the lure of the ring and lets Frodo and Sam go, to the unflaggingly loyal subject who readily and gladly surrenders the steward's throne when the true King returns to Gondor. And the tenderness and understanding that he shows to Eowyn would win any woman's heart.
It seems to me that Faramir goes on a lot of internal journeys of growth and self-discovery, and that he really does grow on a lot of different levels and ultimately comes to realize his own worth and to believe in his own strength rather than comparing himself to his brother or denegrating himself before his father.

[Merry]

Faramir really is the romantic hero of the book. (I expect to get an argument from some on this board about this! ) I love him for the precise reason that they chose to alter his character in the movies: he's simply a good person. The Thing that allegedly would make everyone mad with lust, Faramir says he would not pick up if it were lying on the side of the road, since he knows that there are some dangers in the world that a man should not incur.

Yep, that's the guy for me. Think he's out there somewhere?