Boromir or Faramir

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Boromir or Faramir?

Boromir
8
30%
Faramir
19
70%
 
Total votes: 27

Iolanthe
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Boromir or Faramir

Post by Iolanthe » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:55 pm

Boromir or Faramir?


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© Ted Naismith


Two brothers, two very different men, two very different destinies. Let's talk for a while about Denethor's sons, their strengths and weaknesses and what made them who they are. And for our poll let's suppose you are in a tight corner and need a defender. When it comes to the crunch which of the two would you rather have at your side?

Place your vote and let us know which of the two you would pick and why.

Merry
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Post by Merry » Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:36 am

The representative from Iowa proudly casts the first vote for Faramir!

I am putty in the hands of a good man: "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory."

"And she looked at him and saw the grave tenderness in his eyes, and yet knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle."
Last edited by Merry on Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Estel
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Post by Estel » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:13 pm

Casting the second vote for Faramir. For the same reasons as Merry, I suppose. :? I love Faramir, but you know whom I love the most. :wink: Aragorn is the mysterious hero, that doesn't always do what he should, doesn't know what he's doing sometimes, but it turns out alright, because of his destiny. Faramir is the righteous one, you just admire, the second best man, you will have to do with, but can't fall helplessly in love with, as you know whom. :whistle: Boromir was mostly annoying :lol: until I saw the movies. Which shan't be mentioned here. :-# Boromir is brave, the noble burial and the song almost makes me forget what he did, but let's face it, he's better dead. 8) He is like Judas, necessary for the advancement of the plot :wink: , Frodo and Sam must go alone and so on, for the fellowship to fulfill its mission, but not so interesting otherwise. :-k Except as to show us the power of the ring, be a bad example showing Faramir how he should be instead etc. OK, OK, he is important :twak: and I normally fall for bad boys, :oops: but not in this case. My love for Faramir is too strong, especially as he is the Professor in disguise. :wink:
Edited to add: Forgot to read the initial post properly. :oops: So, I must choose whom I would yell for in case of emergency? It's still Faramir, he is Mr. Reliable. 8)
Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day's rising
he rode singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
Hope he rekindled, and in hope ended;
over death, over dread, over doom lifted
out of loss, out of life, unto long glory.

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Post by marbretherese » Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:51 pm

Yes, I'm for Faramir too. Always have been - he's brave, strong, good, sensitive - I agree with everything Merry and Estel have already said. And he gets the girl at the end . . . the quiet hero. I'd forgotten until I read Estel's post that Tolkien felt that Faramir was like himself (letter 181 if anyone wants to look it up). For me it's no contest . . .
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back.
But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy."


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Iolanthe
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Post by Iolanthe » Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:54 pm

I'm still thinking about this one :-k (obviously, since I asked the question in the first place :lol: ). I know which brother I'd rather marry and I know which brother would make the better ruler (supposing Aragorn never turned up) but I'm not sure who I'd rather have protecting me when the chips were down.

Merry's quote has rather thrown me as I always felt Boromir was the better man at arms:
"And she looked at him and saw the grave tenderness in his eyes, and yet knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle."
Seems Faramir is just as good :wink: . And he resisted the Ring. But Boromir's lack of judgement stemmed from his heavy responsibilities and his love of Gondor as well as his flawed character. He did a pretty good job on the Orcs at Parth Galen and was Gondor's main defender in battle. As Pippin said:
But I honour his memory, for he was very valiant. he died to save us, my kinsmen Meriadoc and myself.....and though he fell and failed, my gratitiude is none the less.'
Of couse Faramir would have done no less. Maybe when it comes to ability and valour they are matched, but not in judgement and trust?

Denethor would have picked Boromir of course!
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...

hope
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Post by hope » Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:12 pm

Well I think in battle either would certainly be a worthy swordsman, both in terms of skill and courage I don't feel either character would flee or fail.

But, Faramir is the one I would ultimately choose as the characters persona, gentleness and inner strength is a huge attraction.

(but second to Aragorn) :wink:
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Varda
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Post by Varda » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:50 am

Faramir most assuredly...I could never envision Boromir settling down, taking a wife, raising a family or even running a country. Not that he wouldn't be capable, but that it wasn't in his nature (despite what his father might have wanted). Dashing, impulsive, valient, and a little arrogant...all attractive traits...but not the best for a leader. Faramir was a much gentler, insightful man(though still a leader among men). :heart:
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We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas.

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Post by Lindariel » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:02 pm

While there are definitely qualities to be admired in Boromir, I am an unabashed Faramir enthusiast. Even before he discovered the truth of Frodo's burden and had the chance to "show his quality," Faramir stole what little bit of my heart was left after Aragorn claimed it earlier in the book with the following:
But I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Numenor; and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise.
Ahh . . . THAT is a MAN!

And then, of course, there is this beauty:
My lord, you called me. I come. What does the king command? . . . . For who would lie idle when the king has returned?
I just adored Tolkien for giving Faramir the wisdom to recognize the King Returned and pledge his complete loyalty without introduction or confirmation.

Is there a woman anywhere who did not absolutely melt upon reading the following?
Do not scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart, Eowyn! But I do not offer you my pity. For you are a lady high and valiant and have yourself won renown that shall not be forgotten; and you are a lady beautiful, I deem, beyond even the words of the Elven-tongue to tell. And I love you. Once I pitied your sorrow. But now, were you sorrowless, without fear or any lack, were you the blissful Queen of Gondor, still I would love you. Eowyn, do you not love me?
And finally, demonstrating with utter grace and dignity that he is a far better man than his father:
The last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office.
Sigh . . . sorry, I just can't imagine Boromir handling any of this nearly as well!

And as far as naming someone to have at my side in dangerous situations, let's not forget:
"Faramir! The Lord Faramir! It is his call!" cried Beregond. "Brave heart! But how can he win to the Gate, if these foul hell-hawks have other weapons than fear? But look! they hold on. They will make the Gate! No! the horses are running mad. Look! the men are thrown; they are running on foot. No, one is still up, but he rides back to the others. That will be the Captain: he can master both beasts and men. Ah! there one of the foul things is stooping on him. Help! help! Will no one go out to him? Faramir!"
And a few moments later:
Pippin pressed forward as they passed under the lamp beneath the gate-arch, and when he saw the pale face of Faramir he caught his breath. It was the face of one who has been assailed by a great fear or anguish, but has mastered it and now is quiet. Proud and grave he stood for a moment as he spoke to the guard, and Pippin gazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir -- whom Pippin had liked from the first, admiring the great man's lordly but kindly manner. Yet suddenly for Faramir his heart was strangely moved with a feeling that he had not known before. Here was one with an air of high nobility such as Aragorn at times revealed, less high perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote: one of the Kings of Men born into a later time, but touched with the wisdom and sadness of the Elder Race. He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings.
Ohhhhhhh, yes! Give me Faramir any day!
Last edited by Lindariel on Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

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Post by marbretherese » Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:16 pm

Lindariel wrote:Is there a woman anywhere who did not absolutely melt upon reading the following?
Do not scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart, Eowyn! But I do not offer you my pity. For you are a lady high and valiant and have yourself won renown that shall not be forgotten; and you are a lady beautiful, I deem, beyond even the words of the Elven-tongue to tell. And I love you. Once I pitied your sorrow. But now, were you sorrowless, without fear or any lack, were you the blissful Queen of Gondor, still I would love you. Eowyn, do you not love me?
I certainly melted when I read it! thanks for posting these quotes, Lindariel, I have not had time to read my favourite Faramir passages recently and you have gathered them all nicely into one post! :lol:
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back.
But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy."


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Lindariel
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Post by Lindariel » Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:36 pm

You're very welcome, M! Glad you enjoyed the post!

I find the character of Faramir all the more amazing when I discovered in Tolkien's letters (no. 66) that he did not even know that Faramir existed until he suddenly appeared!
A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir -- and he is holding up the 'catastrophe' by a lot of stuff about the history of Gondor and Rohan (with some very sound reflections no doubt on martial glory and true glory): but if he goes on much more a lot of him will have to be removed to the appendices . . .
Well, thank goodness the Professor left much of Faramir's musings on Gondorian history and true glory IN the story! We are immensely enriched by it.
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

Merry
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Post by Merry » Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:24 am

Well, we certainly have a fan club here! And, as always, Lindariel, you have succeeded in gathering the relevant texts.

One of my favorite images in LOTR is of Faramir sitting on the ground in Ithilien with an irate Sam Gamgee in his face. That he allowed that to happen shows his 'quality' as well.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Lindariel
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Post by Lindariel » Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:22 pm

Hee, Merry! That is a PRICELESS moment in the story. I just love how Tolkien describes the look on Sam's face "as if he was addressing a young hobbit who had offered him what he called 'sauce' when questioned about visits to the orchard."

And I love Faramir's calm response: "Patience! . . . Were I as hasty as you, I might have slain you long ago. For I am commanded to slay all whom I find in this land without the leave of the Lord of Gondor. But I do not slay man or beast needlessly, and not gladly even when it is needed."

This is yet another example of Faramir using wisdom to selectively apply Denethor's rather sweeping decrees and displaying a "quality" his father certainly did not possess. Even Boromir did not ascribe to a policy of "shoot first and ask questions later!"

Speaking of Denethor, I found the following very interesting passage about him in letter #183: "If he [Denethor] had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest."
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

Iolanthe
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Post by Iolanthe » Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:22 pm

Lindariel wrote:You're very welcome, M! Glad you enjoyed the post!

I find the character of Faramir all the more amazing when I discovered in Tolkien's letters (no. 66) that he did not even know that Faramir existed until he suddenly appeared!
A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir -- and he is holding up the 'catastrophe' by a lot of stuff about the history of Gondor and Rohan (with some very sound reflections no doubt on martial glory and true glory): but if he goes on much more a lot of him will have to be removed to the appendices . . .
Well, thank goodness the Professor left much of Faramir's musings on Gondorian history and true glory IN the story! We are immensely enriched by it.
That's really interesting - thanks for posting that! How much poorer our vision of Gondor would have been without him, with Boromir and Denethor left as our main examples of the Gondorians. Faramir is crucial to gaining our sympathy for the people of Gondor and their long stand against Sauron.

But I feel terribly sorry for poor Boromir, left out in the cold because he is a soildier first and foremost with too much of his father's pride, too desperate a desire to save his people at the cost of his judgement, too little an understanding of the 'bigger picture'. I think he would flatten any foes pretty well if I needed him so I've voted for him :P . (But I would never, never marry him :wink: !)
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...

Philipa
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Post by Philipa » Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:08 pm

I voted and although I think the answers above answer two questions (marrage was brought up several times :lol: ) and not one, my vote went to Boromir. I see he is no more valient then Faramir when it came to the fight I just would feel 'safer' with him.

The sub question of who do you admire more or want to spend the rest of your days with my vote would have been Faramir. There are many excellent posts above to suport my theory.

As Lindariel wrote:
But I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Numenor; and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise.


Ahh . . . THAT is a MAN!
:D
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Post by Leggy » Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:14 pm

I have to be honest, I do sometimes find it difficult to seperate the film's characters from the book's.
I know it's a shame, but it is the truth.

So on the one hand, Boromir would have my vote, but that would have nothing to do with the book :wink:

To stay true to the book, although Boromir had Gondor's best interests at heart, and we are led to feel he is the 'warrior' of the two brothers, I would also go for Faramir.
He too is a good leader of men, but he also has the gentle quality and dependabiliy, (is that even a word??) that would calm you in a crisis.

Does that even make sense??? :roll:
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