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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:27 pm
by Iolanthe
It is Yum Yum's line! One of my favourites :D . I'm a three times over Pitti-Sing (I always loved that part) and have now graduated to Katisha (even better!). Mikado Rocks!

That hand is seriously creepy. For anyone that's got JRR Tolkien, Artist and Illustrator there are several nightmarish images of creeping hands. See Wickedness (no. 32) and Maddo (no. 78 ). It was a childhood dream of Tolkien's son Michael - a gloved hand without an arm that opened the curtains and crawled down them (brrrr). It could be the source of that image like the wave dream that Faramir has is Tolkien's own recurring dream. Tolkien was clearly fascinated by dreams, believed some of them were significant and had meaning and, as we know, plastered them all through LotR so the hand could be a version of Maddo.

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:29 pm
by Merry
I didn't know about Michael's dream, Iolanthe. I guess it occurs to me that this might be why Tolkien's 'fantasy' has such the air of reality--a lot of it comes from reality!

Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:31 pm
by Kirill Leonov
Yes, dreams seem to have quite a significance, now you mention it...

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:54 pm
by Iolanthe
There are so many throughout the book - Frodo in particular has several obscure dreams that tell him of things that are happening elsewhere or are coming in the future. I think I read somewhere here that Gandalf, as Olorin, had charge of dreams and visions as one of his gifts?

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:33 pm
by Lindariel
Actually, dreams and visions are the province of the Vala Irmo of Lorien. Here's the relevant passage from The Silmarillion:
Irmo the younger [of The Feanturi, masters of spirits, the brothers Namo (Mandos) and Irmo (Lorien)] is the master of visions and dreams. In Lorien are his gardens in the land of the Valar, and they are the fairest of all places in the world, filled with many spirits. Este the gentle, healer of hurts and of weariness, is his spouse.
Here is the passage about Olorin (Gandalf):
Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin. He too dwelt in Lorien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:56 pm
by Iolanthe
There definitely is a reference somewhere that connects Gandalf with dreams - I remember now that I read it in Amon Hen no.210 in an article: The Dream-Maker by Jeff Stevenson.

The article is about Olórin and dreams:
Of course a discussion of dreams could not be complete without Gandalf, who had been known as Olórin in Aman, for there he induced 'fair visions of the promptings of wisdom' (Valaquenta, 'Of the Maiar', Silmarillion).
He says that the name Olórin comes from the Quenya word sometimes translated as 'dream', and he gave the Valar clear vision in their minds and imaginations. The author then suggests this is one reason Olórin was chosen to go to Middle-earth. He points out the several of Frodo's oracular dreams happen when Gandalf is separated from Frodo, worried and bending his mind to him. He also suggests the dream that Faramir (Gandalf's pupil) and then Boromir has has come from Gandalf. They hear a remote Voice summoning them but do not know who's voice it is.

The author does not claim that there is evidence that these are absolutely connected as it'a all circumstantial, but that given Olórin's gift (mentioned above) he very well could be conciously prompting these dreams, and possibly also unconciously.

It's a very interesting little essay and worth thinking about!

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:52 pm
by Merry
Interesting, Iolanthe. I never thought to connect Faramir and Boromir's dreams to Gandalf.

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:08 pm
by hope
no...nor me :)

Here's yet another instance of why I read and want to re-read Tolkien again and again!!!! which I tried and failed to explain a colleague at work who questioned why I would read to the same story again when i had read it before
:roll: :roll:

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:55 am
by Kirill Leonov
Me neither. Thanks for posting this, Iolanthe.
(Are we still in the correct chapter? :))

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:57 pm
by Iolanthe
No, we've gone for a little wander :lol: . But if in wandering we learn more about Tolkien it's worth packing the Lembas and frying pans and going for it!