Prologue

A chapter by chapter as well as general discussion of Tolkien's masterpiece
Mararan
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:29 pm
Location: The White City
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Mararan » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:39 pm

0 x

Riv Res
Manwë
Posts: 2111
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:35 am
Location: Walking the fields of the Pelennor with the King
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Riv Res » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:02 am

0 x
Riv Res



Mithrandir
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:15 pm
Location: Proud member of the "deplorable cultus" since 1975
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Mithrandir » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:28 am

0 x
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

Philipa
Ulmo
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Surfing on the OO or hanging with the Teleri
Contact:

Postby Philipa » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:59 am

0 x

bruce rerek
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:16 pm
Location: Brooklyn
Contact:

Postby bruce rerek » Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:14 am

0 x
Bruce
Mornie utlie
Believe and you will find your way
Mornie alantie
a promise lives within you now

Iolanthe
Uinen
Posts: 2339
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Iolanthe » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:53 pm

0 x
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...

Merry
Varda
Posts: 3263
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
Location: Middle-west
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Merry » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:20 am

0 x
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Iolanthe
Uinen
Posts: 2339
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Iolanthe » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:32 am

0 x
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...

Merry
Varda
Posts: 3263
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
Location: Middle-west
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Merry » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:20 pm

I don't think JRRT ever tells us if hobbits had any beliefs concerning the afterlife: too firmly rooted in this life, I guess. But Frodo and Sam seem to adopt the Elves' worldview easily enough in other things, like the Valar and the creation story, etc., and rightly so, since some of the Elves had actually seen the Valar in their material guise. I wonder if hobbits assumed that their afterlife would be the same as the Elves'.
0 x
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Iolanthe
Uinen
Posts: 2339
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Iolanthe » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:13 pm

I think that Sam and Frodo were so untypical in that respect that most Hobbits had no idea what Elves had really seen or believed. It seems that all interaction with them had pretty much died.

Tolkien also says in the prologue that Hobbits 'are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves or even Men........But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered.' So we can only suppose that after death Tolkien sees them as going to the same place we do? There is a lot of fudging around in the Prologue to compensate for the fact that they don't exist in his original mythology, came out of nowhere and he knows nothing about them beyond their daily lives.

It's clear that he finds this mystery fun - he explains that the Elves only kept histories from their own perspective, so no Hobbits in the Sil. He makes a great deal of tracking their origins to north of the Anduin between Greenwood the Great and the Misty Mountains through their early legends. What is so typical of Tolkien is what he doesn't do: write them backwards into the early myths as though them not being there is a sort of mistake. That would tamper with his sub-creation and everything it's about. They are not there and that's the end of it - and he sets out to find out why and explain it.

Who else in the world has ever written like Tolkien?
0 x
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...

Merry
Varda
Posts: 3263
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
Location: Middle-west
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Merry » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:27 pm

This is a great insight, Iolanthe. It's like he's using his academic linguistic methodogy, except people are the words. Some words must just all of the sudden appear in texts for the first time and you have to acknowledge that. And, as we've said over and over, if hobbits hadn't appeared in the story and Tolkien had just written the Sil, few to none of us would ever have heard of him.

I also just love it that Tolkien chose not to answer every question for us. I've been paging through my Annotated Hobbit rather randomly, and I've been looking at his picture of Laketown and the sources which Anderson conjectures that Tolkien drew from in this imaginative geography. In the text, Tolkien writes, "The rotting piles of a greater town could still be seen along the shores when the waters sank in a drought." Anderson says in a note, 'The history of this "greater town" was not chronicled by J. R. R. Tolkien.'

Ya gotta love it! Depth and history and roots and mystery everywhere!
0 x
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Merry
Varda
Posts: 3263
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
Location: Middle-west
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Merry » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:25 am

Back to the beginning again!

I've been reading the prologue again, which, I admit, I have often skipped. So this is the first time I've really noticed: Tolkien gives it all away there at the beginning! He tells us that all four hobbits make it back to the Shire, that Elessar becomes King, that the Shire thrives and is admitted to the Reunited Kingdom, that this all happens because of the unlikely insertion of the hobbits in world affairs, and that Galadriel goes Over the Sea. It's interesting that we don't remember all that as we read breathlessly, wondering if Frodo will ever make it!

I wonder why JRRT did it this way. We discussed upthread that it's likely that he wrote the prologue after the story was done. Why reveal how the story ends before it begins?
0 x
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

librislove
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:19 am
Location: western PA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby librislove » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:15 pm

Ah--but it's the journey itself! And he does mention he had been asked for more information on the hobbits; perhaps he figured most of the readers of the Prologue would not notice or make the connection between his precis of the story and the novel they were about to read. They were, he thought, still immersed in The Hobbit . Or he guessed like most readers, we would not bother with the Prologue. :twisted:
0 x
Many live who deserve death; some die who deserve life--can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be so quick to deal out death in judgment. Even the wisest cannot see all ends.

marbretherese
Posts: 765
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:42 pm
Location: Middle England
Contact:

Postby marbretherese » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:41 am

I first read LOTR so long ago I can't remember whether I read the Prologue first or not :D I suspect not. But I doubt it makes much sense if you read it first . . . . as soon as you get into the story itself that kind of takes over!
0 x
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back.
But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy."


http://www.marbretherese.com
http://marbretherese.blogspot.com/

Merry
Varda
Posts: 3263
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
Location: Middle-west
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Merry » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:08 pm

It certainly does! I guess it takes a lot of confidence in the power of one's story for an author to reveal the ending in the prologue.
0 x
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.


[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “The Lord of the Rings”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests