Return of the King - General Discussion

A chapter by chapter as well as general discussion of Tolkien's masterpiece
Philipa
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Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Philipa » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:18 pm

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Here is where we discuss anything and everything from the third book of the Lord of the Rings.
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Philipa
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Philipa » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:33 pm

OK, I've created this thread because I need to talk to someone about this passage found in chapter 6, book 6 entitled Many Partings.

It comes to the parting of Treebeard in Isengard and the company. Treebeard says to Celebron and Galadriel that they will never meet again. Galadriel said, "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet again in the Spring, Farwell!"

I find this elusive and I'm not sure if Tolkien mentions Tasarinan (Quenya for "willow-valley") in any other writings. Has he explained this in any of his letters or other texts?
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Merry
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Merry » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:18 pm

That is elusive, isn't it? The reference to the land under the wave has to be Numenor, right? I think Shippey might have something about that line. I'll look it up this afternoon.

I'm glad you started this thread, Philipa, since I'm reading ROTK right now--great timing! I finished the Houses of Healing chapter last night and was, once again, so moved by its beauty and poignancy. I loved the several descriptions of the healing fragrance of athelas. I loved the discussion among Eomer, Aragorn, and Gandalf about Eowyn. I loved the simple, yet profound friendship of Merry and Pippin. What a masterpiece!
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Lindariel » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:33 pm

Actually Merry and Philipa, the willows of Tasarinan were located in the land of Beleriand, which was lost under the sea during the War of Wrath. Numenor is not the only land to be lost under the sea! When Galadriel speaks with Fangorn, I believe she is suggesting that when the world is remade, the lost lands of Beleriand will rise up again from the sea, and then she and Celeborn will walk with the Eldest in his original homeland.

Here's the entry from the Encyclopedia of Arda:

Tasarinan: A name for the watery willow-forest that grew up in central Beleriand where the River Narog met the Sirion. It is more commonly known as Nan-tathren, or sometimes as Nan-tasarion. All these names have the same meaning; 'valley of the willows'.
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Merry » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:10 pm

Thanks, Lindariel! You're certainly our expert on The Sil! I guess Tolkien loved this theme--we see him repeating themes like this, don't we? I assumed they were the same land masses.
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Philipa
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Philipa » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:31 pm

Lindariel wrote:Actually Merry and Philipa, the willows of Tasarinan were located in the land of Beleriand, which was lost under the sea during the War of Wrath.


This was my first guess! I never wrote it down because of time constraints. I find the whole passage a mystery though, because I don't remember any reference to the world being remade in the future. Having read the Sil only three times I don't remember reading about Tasarinan.

Thanks for pitching in. I was shocked someone other than Merry spoke up. :lol:

Merry, I do love the House of Healing chapter as well. We see our characters in a different light. Eomer is vulnerable, Aragorn is confident in his purpose, Eowyn can be seen as the death wish queen she really is and Faramir acts the nobleman with blood from the old kings that he is too.

Please use this thread. I really miss our discussions when we're reading simultaneously. :D
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby MICHKA » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:17 am

la lecture du site ''Pensées de Eryn Lasgalen'' me paraît extrêmement riche, malheureusement, toutes ces rubriques sont certainement éditées en anglais seulement; il y a beaucoup de documents sur l'oeuvre de Tolkien qui ne sont pas disponibles dans ma région, et si je voulais commander par internet je n'aurais pas de traduction. C'est pourquoi votre intervention sur ce forum m'est très précieuse , je reçois des informations, des renseignements qui enrichissent mon esprit et ouvrent des portes extraordinaires sur le monde de Tolkien et la Terre du Milieu; grand merci à vous tous :clapping: :D
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Philipa » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:34 pm

Michka we know, like you, how valuable interaction with other Tolkien fans is. We're glad you have joined us too. :D
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Lindariel » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:40 pm

Tasarinan was also called Nan-tathren or Nan-tasarion and was apparently a place of great beauty where the refugees from Gondolin rested on their way to the mouths of Sirion after Glorfindel gave his life to save them from the Balrog. It is mentioned only in passing in the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin and remembered in the Lay of Leithien. I suspect Galadriel chose to speak of it to Treebeard because it was a lost place of tremendous beauty and a place of remembrance and sorrow.

Here's the passage from "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin:"

Thus led by Tuor son of Huor the remnant of Gondolin passed over the mountains, and came down into the Vale of Sirion; and feeling southward by weary and dangerous marches they came at length to Nan-tathren, the Land of Willows, for the power of Ulmo yet ran in the great river, and it was about them. There they rested a while, and were healed of their hurts and weariness; but their sorrow could not be healed. And they made a feast in memory of Gondolin and of the Elves that had perished there, the maidens, and the wives, and the warriors of the King; and for Glorfindel the beloved many were the songs they sang, under the willows of Nan-tathren in the waning of the year. There Tuor made a song for Earendil his son, concerning the coming of Ulmo the Lord of Waters to the shores of Nevrast aforetime; and the sea-longing woke in his heart, and in his son's also. Therefore Idril and Tuor departed from Nan-tathren, and went southwards down the river to the sea; and they dwelt there by the mouths of Sirion, and joined their people to the company of Elwing Dior's daughter, that had fled thither but a little while before.
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Riv Res » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:49 pm

Can I change the subject just a wee bit and get all of your thoughts on the following ...

Rivendell is Different

Hi, all--

Since this is a thread about The Return of the King, I've moved Riv Res' excellent essay to the 'Members Essays' section under the thread about 'Home'. (Hope you don't mind, RR!) I think little essays like this are great and we should all do them now and again! You'll enjoy what our Rivendell expert has to say. Then maybe we can keep that and this discussion going at the same time.

Nice to see a little action here!

Merry
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Riv Res » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:13 am

Thanks Merry. :oops: :oops: :oops: :)
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Philipa
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Philipa » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:55 pm

On a lighter note, I always love the ending of the book as Merry and Pippin are together again. They sit high on their ponies, taller than the average hobbit, and sing songs and are jolly through out the Shire. That ent-draught and their experiences from hardship during the war makes them giants among hobbits.
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Merry » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:38 pm

I enjoy that, too, Philipa. They also continue to wear their armor in the Shire--what a great picture!
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Riv Res
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Riv Res » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:35 pm

March 13: Frodo captured by the Orcs of Cirith Ungol. The Pelennor is overrun. Faramir is wounded. Aragorn reaches Pelargir and captures the fleet. Théoden in Drúadan Forest.


From today's Great Years Calendar ...

I don't think we have added the chapter(s) that contains this part of the story, but it is certainly one of my favorite parts. Tolkien has it scattered throughout several disparate chapters but holy smokes!! ... the story is reaching a crescendo here! I am distraught about Faramir ... frantic about Frodo ... breathlessly urging Aragorn on and wishing him strength. LOL ... Théoden in the Drúadan Forest seems almost like a nice diversion!! :lol:
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Re: Return of the King - General Discussion

Postby Merry » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:03 pm

I think our chapter-by-chapter discussion had run out of steam before that, RR. But yes, when Frodo was captured, I thought he was done for! And with Tolkien's 'interlacing' style, we don't know that all these things are happening on the same day. I don't have access to my books, but they're probably many chapter apart, right?
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.


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