Requests for Tolkien Research Assistance

A forum to help all of us when we are researching Tolkien's writings.
Merry
Varda
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Postby Merry » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:31 pm

There is also the famous Old Winyards from Bilbo's cellar! I like the sound of Dorwinion, too, though it is in the North Kingdom and maybe not the Mediterranean climate.

If you were looking for something in the south, though, my guess would have been Lossarnach, which also seems to be full of gardens. And Forlong the Fat came from there!
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Lindariel
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Postby Lindariel » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:07 pm

Riv Res wrote:Lindariel...if you were in front of me I would give you a BIG kiss!

The Vineyards of Dorwinion sounds like an outstanding subject for a watercolor piece!! :D


Shucks, Riv! I'm certainly not to proud to accept a big virtual kiss. Looking forward to your depiction of "The Vineyards of Dorwinion." Should be a truly extraordinary place if it produces the finest and most potent wine in all of Middle-earth!
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

elentarivarda
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Location: Is this Heaven? No, it's Iowa. :D

Postby elentarivarda » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:26 pm

Well, this whole thread was terribly interesting! :D

I look forward to more topics!

I remember my first trip to Europe and the main thing that stood out to me were the vineyards. They were just so beautiful. :D I think I'd love to visit this part of Middle-earth. I've never been as interested in the Shire, as others seem to be. The forests, esp. Mirkwood, and now this "Dorwinion" are far more interesting to me! :D
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Merry
Varda
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Postby Merry » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:27 pm

I'm doing a little writing this semester on Tolkien and I could use some help thinking. One part of my paper tries to make the claim that some of the characters in LOTR can be seen in terms of priest, prophet, and king, roles to which Catholics are called to fulfill in our baptism liturgy. It's pretty well known, of course, that the Church doesn't call all of us to those roles in a literaral sense. (That's okay: I'm not bitter because I can't be a priest! :twisted: ) But there's a metaphorical sense of these terms, also.

Anyway, probably the weakest part of my claim is that Aragorn functions as a kind of Old Testament priest. Yes, there were Hebrew priests in the OT, descendents of Aaron and of the tribe of Levi. Besides maintaining their lineage, their primary job was to lead rituals. It's pretty easy to see how Aragorn's lineage was the most impressive in LOTR, and I think that his handling of athelas and his absolution and funeral rite for Boromir fit this role. But can anybody think of any other ritual elements in Aragorn's actions?

Thanks in advance! This would help a lot.
0 x
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Riv Res
Manwë
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Postby Riv Res » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:11 pm

Merry, I think that the events at Minas Tirith are full of rituals that Aragorn brings with him. I think that it is more evident in that part of the story than anywhere else.

:arrow: The refusal to enter the city as a triumphant King before he is crowned. He enters as a healer in diguise. This has always seemed to me to smack more of ritual and tradition than sheer modesty.

:arrow: The whole House of Healing chapter speaks to the healing powers of, and ritual of the King as a healer.

:arrow: The coronation where he has Faramir bring him the crown and Aragorn says the unforgettable... "Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome Maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!"

:arrow: The whole ritual after he was crowned where he came to the barrier and Húrin of the Keys opened it and Aragorn went through the flower filled streets.

:arrow: When Aragorn finds and takes the white sapling back to the city and replaces the White Tree.
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Lindariel
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Postby Lindariel » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:38 am

I think also of the almost ritualistic way in which Gandalf presents the palantir to Aragorn and Aragorn accepts it:

" . . . Will you, Aragorn, take the Orthanc-stone and guard it? It is a dangerous charge."

"Dangerous indeed, but not to all," said Aragorn. "There is one who may claim it by right. For this assuredly is the palantir of Orthanc from the treasury of Elendil, set here by the Kings of Gondor. Now my hour draws near. I will take it."

Gandalf looked at Aragorn, and then, to the surprise of the others, he lifted the covered Stone, and bowed as he presented it.

"Receive it, lord!" he said: "in earnest of other things that shall be given back. But if I may counsel you in the use of your own, do not use it -- yet! Be wary!"

"When have I been hasty or unwary, who have waited and prepared for so many long years?" said Aragorn.


There is also the ritual at the Stone of Erech:

"Oathbreakers, why have ye come?"

And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away: "To fulfill our oath and have peace."

Then Aragorn said: "The hour is come at last. Now I go to Pelargir upon Anduin, and ye shall come after me. And when all this land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart for ever. For I am Elessar, Isildur's heir of Gondor."


Aragorn does indeed embody all three roles -- priest, prophet (he IS foresighted! -- remember his warning to Gandalf before the Fellowship entered Moria, among others), and king.
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

Merry
Varda
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Postby Merry » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:44 am

You gals are awesome!
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Lindariel
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Postby Lindariel » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:34 am

Merry, I'm a Protestant born and raised (United Church of Christ as a child, the Episcopal Church as an adult). Could I ask if the Catholic Church also speaks of its followers sometimes as "warriors of/for Christ?" There are a number of Protestant hymns, for instance, "Soldiers of Christ arise and put your armor on," etc., that evoke the theme of the Church Militant. In the interest of being all-inclusive, would it be appropriate for your paper also to address Aragorn's most obvious role as Warrior-King? He really is all of these roles in one -- Warrior-Priest-Healer-Prophet-King.
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Lindariel Image



“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

Merry
Varda
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Postby Merry » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:01 am

I wish I were a theologian (well, not really, but it would be handy right now!). Before Vatican II, a time of which I have only a dim memory, Catholics spoke of being a 'soldier for Christ'; when I was confirmed, at the tender age of seven, the bishop still struck the confirmed on the face as a sign that we were soldiers for Christ. (We all looked forward to that with trepidation, thinking the bishop was really going to sock it to us, but it was more of a gentle ceremonial tap!) But I'm not sure we ever talked about the Church Militant, or if being a warrior was in the same category as priest, prophet, king. The important part of the question, though, is whether the Catholic Church of Tolkien's time believed in this.

I need to ask an expert. I'll get back to you.
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Lindariel
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Postby Lindariel » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:16 pm

Clearly, today when we speak of being "Soldiers of/for Christ," we are speaking in the spiritual/evangelical sense, and the armor is spiritual armor. However, if we think back to The Crusades, being a "Soldier of/for Christ" literally meant strapping on a sword and going to war. Even more recently, especially during the World Wars and other more contemporary conflicts, it was not unheard-of for chaplains at the front to bear a side-arm for self-protection and the protection of the wounded and defenseless in their care. Would this have resonance for your paper as well?
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

Merry
Varda
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Postby Merry » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:41 pm

Maybe so. I'll have to think about it more. I do think that when Aragorn strapped on his sword and went to war, his motivation was beyond nationalism. Since his 'enemy' was Sauron, it was sort of a religious war. But in the Real World, I imagine Tolkien was very suspicious of that kind of motivation.
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

MICHKA
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Re: Requests for Tolkien Research Assistance

Postby MICHKA » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:23 pm

Si vous regardez les bonus de la version courte cinéma du ''Retour du roi'', edition Prestige, il y a un documentaire fort intéressant et explicite sur le destin et les motivations d'Aragorn; c'est très bien fait avec beaucoup d'analogies à des personnages véritables, réels, ayant existé!!!Cela peut éventuellement éclairer quelques points obscurs pour certains. De mon point de vue il ne fait aucun doute sur la signification des mobiles justifiant les actes héroïques de celui-ci; sauver une terre et ses habitants, protéger du mal engendré par son ennemi l'existence et le mode de vie, obéir à sa foi en l'humanité.
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Tout ce que nous avons à décider c'est ce que nous devons faire du temps qui nous est imparti

Merry
Varda
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Re: Requests for Tolkien Research Assistance

Postby Merry » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:45 pm

Thanks, Michka--I'll have to look to see if that is in our edition here in the States. It's kind of fun that, as you are making your way around our site, you're also reminding us of good conversations from the past!

Lindariel, as I've read up this thread, I now happen to know that Catholic priests are not and have never been allowed to carry weapons of any kind. (Even now, in orders of Knights such as the Knights of Columbus and the Knights of the Holy Sepulchre, priests who are members do not wear the ceremonial swords, because their counterparts in the Middle Ages did not carry weapons.) I think this is probably a good thing, a little nod toward the inconsistencies between the message of Christ and the violence of warfare, even though the Church has not often been consistent in this area.

I do sometimes hear old-time Catholics speak of the Church Militant, however, but as you said above, the battle is a spiritual one, often with one's own demons. :evil:
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

MICHKA
Posts: 535
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:45 am

Re: Requests for Tolkien Research Assistance

Postby MICHKA » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:51 am

bonjour, le documentaire dont je parle est réalisé par le ''National Géographic''; je reprends la route du retour de vacances et vous retrouverai depuis le nord de la France dès lundi; je pourrais me pencher sur mes livres et anecdotes pour continuer nos échanges et répondre aux jeux, à bientôt et merci de vos encouragements
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Tout ce que nous avons à décider c'est ce que nous devons faire du temps qui nous est imparti

Merry
Varda
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Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
Location: Middle-west

Re: Requests for Tolkien Research Assistance

Postby Merry » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:14 pm

Thanks, Michka. I've never seen the National Geographic program, although I imagine it's wonderful! I'll need to add that to my list.

It IS hard to participate in the discussions here when one is away from one's research materials. Memory is sometimes faulty! So welcome back from your vacation.
0 x
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.


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