LoTR - The Appendices

A chapter by chapter as well as general discussion of Tolkien's masterpiece
Merry
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Merry » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:43 pm

Maybe if we start sewing our banners, our kings will show up! :D
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Riv Res
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Riv Res » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:54 pm

I am starting NOW!! \:D/
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Merry
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Merry » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:19 am

More from the appendices, I think! We see that Brand and Dain die today, and I think I read in the appendices that Dain died defending Brand's body with his axe. So it appears that the two races learned to co-exist after the Battle of the Five Armies.
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Philipa
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Philipa » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:51 am

Merry wrote:Since the whole defeat of Sauron balances on a knife's edge, as Galadriel says, in many places, would it have been won without the banner of Arwen?


:-k That is a good question. I suppose they could have still turned the tide with a manly "hurah!" but it wouldn't have been so dramatic.

Merry wrote:More from the appendices, I think! We see that Brand and Dain die today, and I think I read in the appendices that Dain died defending Brand's body with his axe. So it appears that the two races learned to co-exist after the Battle of the Five Armies.


You are correct Merry and that knowledge always breaks my heart. :( You know, PJ's battles can drive me crazy because they seem to go on and on. However, I wish Tolkien could have written what was going on in Mirkwood, Lorien and Erebor (to name a few) at the time of the battles in front of Minas Tirith.

That thought I had about the Elven rings of power was this, I was under the impression Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf before Galdalf set sail into the West? In the appendices Cirdan gave the ring to Gandalf before this.

"Take this ring, Master," he said, 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the gray shores until the last ship sails. I will await you.'


Am I remembering chronologically wrong?
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Lindariel
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Lindariel » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:13 pm

Philipa, Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf when Gandalf first arrived in Middle-earth as an Istari. Gandalf landed at Mithlond after the other wizards had already preceeded him, and Cirdan was moved to give him Marya because he sensed something in Gandalf that he did not sense in the other four Wizards. Gandalf had Narya for his entire tenure as a Wizard in Middle-earth, and then took it with him when he sailed back to Valinor with the other Ring-Bearers.
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Merry » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:51 pm

Wasn't there something somewhere about the Valar not being sure they would send Gandalf in the first place? That they weren't sure he was up to the task? And yet he turned out to be the greatest of them all! All over the place, Tolkien shows us the Beatitudes: Blessed are the meek!
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Lindariel
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Lindariel » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:32 pm

Merry, it wasn't that the Valar thought Gandalf wasn't up to the task -- he doubted himself! The first three Wizards -- Saruman (from Aule's people) and the two Blue Wizards (from Orome's Maiar, I think) -- were volunteers. Then Yavanna chose Radagast because she was concerned for her living things. Finally Varda urged Manwe to send Olorin/Gandalf, because she was privately concerned about Saruman's pride. When Olorin was summoned and offered the task, he expressed doubts that he would be able to go up against Sauron. His humility ultimately made him the ideal candidate!
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

Riv Res
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Riv Res » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:52 pm

Fascinating ladies!!
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Merry
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Merry » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:06 pm

Even better story!

I tried to write a paper once on this theme in Tolkien, which I think is deeply Christian. It is the small, humble and weak who ultimately save the world. My knowledge of the Bible isn't very good (make your own Catholic joke here!), but I think this is more specifically from one of the Pauline letters. I do know a verse of a song we sing in church that is based on Paul:

He has chosen the lowly
Who are small in this world.
In his weakness is glory
In Jesus the Lord.


Isn't this one of the important themes of LOTR? I see it in many places.
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Philipa
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Philipa » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:00 pm

Merry wrote:
Isn't this one of the important themes of LOTR? I see it in many places.


Yes, I agree Merry and perhaps though Tolkien stated many times his story wasn't Christian related though I think the theme runs deep.
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Merry
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Merry » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:21 pm

I think we're talking about levels, Philipa. Although the story isn't explicitly Christian or even allegorical, like The Chronicles of Narnia, he did say in one of the letters that LOTR was a fundamentally Christian and even Catholic work. He wrote that it was first unconsciously so, and consciously so in the revision. That's not even to say that it is only that--I think it is many things wrapped into one. But I think those kinds of religious themes are unmistakably and deeply there.
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Riv Res
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Riv Res » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:53 am

Our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Eph. 6:12
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Merry
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Merry » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:47 am

Wow--that certainly fits!

"Not many of you are wise, as men account wisdom; not many are influential; and surely not many are well-born. God chose those whom the world considers absurd to shame the wise; he singled out the weak of this world to shame the strong. He chose the world's lowborn and despised, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who were something . . ."

1 Corinthians 1: 26-28

"Lowly but chosen." (Pope Francis' motto) :D
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Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Riv Res
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Location: Walking the fields of the Pelennor with the King

Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby Riv Res » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:13 pm

I think Francis just might be a Tolkien geek at heart. :wink:
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MICHKA
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Re: LoTR - The Appendices

Postby MICHKA » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:36 pm

Il est dit dans les bonus de LOTR que Tolkien s'est inspiré fortement de la bible ,autant que des sagas scandinaves, parce qu'il était de fond chrétien, et il y a beaucoup de similtudes pour le sauvetage et la création du monde, tournés à sa façon
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